On January 6, 2021, just hours before a violent mob stormed the U.S. Capitol, then-President Donald Trump placed a phone call to his vice president, Mike Pence. The conversation, now immortalized in hastily scribbled notes by Pence and revealed for the first time in Jonathan Karl’s new book, Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America, has become a crucial piece of evidence in the ongoing debate over Trump’s responsibility for the events that unfolded that day.
According to ABC News, which obtained exclusive details from Karl’s book, Trump berated Pence, calling him a "wimp" during their final phone call on the morning of January 6. The call occurred around 11 a.m. Eastern, just before Trump was set to address his supporters at the "Save America" rally on the Ellipse. As Pence documented in his day planner, Trump told him, "You'll go down as a wimp" and, in a stinging rebuke, added, "If you do that, I made a big mistake 5 years ago." Pence’s notes even included a scribbled angry emoji after Trump accused him of listening to "the wrong people."
Pence’s refusal to block the certification of Joe Biden’s victory had been the subject of intense pressure from Trump and his allies in the days leading up to January 6. According to Karl’s reporting, draft versions of Trump’s speech that day were hurriedly altered to target Pence directly. The special counsel investigating Trump’s actions, Jack Smith, had amassed terabytes of evidence, including a forensic copy of Trump’s iPhone, which meticulously documented the president’s digital activity throughout the day.
Smith’s final report to Attorney General Merrick Garland, made public in January 2025, asserted that the evidence his team collected would have been sufficient to convict Trump—had the former president not been reelected in 2024. "The Department's view that the Constitution prohibits the continued indictment and prosecution of a President is categorical and does not turn on the gravity of the crimes charged, the strength of the Government's proof, or the merits of the prosecution, which the Office stands fully behind," Smith wrote. He concluded, "Indeed, but for Mr. Trump's election and imminent return to the Presidency, the Office assessed that the admissible evidence was sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction at trial."
Yet, the Supreme Court’s ruling on presidential immunity in July 2024 cast a long shadow over Smith’s ability to proceed with the case. The Court’s decision potentially curtailed the use of key evidence—including Pence’s notes and the digital forensic data extracted from Trump’s phone—had the prosecution moved forward. As a result, much of this material was never publicly released, leaving a gap in the historical record of Trump’s alleged actions during one of the most tumultuous periods in American political history.
Pence’s notes, which were intended to serve as a linchpin in Smith’s case, paint a vivid picture of the pressure campaign waged by Trump. According to Karl’s account, the notes chronicle how Trump was repeatedly corrected about his false claims of widespread voter fraud, yet continued to push them despite knowing they were unfounded. In his memoir, So Help Me God, Pence recalled that Trump called him around 11 a.m. on January 6 for a final attempt to persuade him to block the certification. Pence wrote in his notes, "You're not protecting our country, you're supposed to support + defend our country." He responded, "I said we both [took] an oath to support + defend the Constitution." In a telling remark, Pence added, "It doesn't take courage to break the law. It takes courage to uphold the law."
Multiple witnesses inside the White House that morning described the call as "heated." Ivanka Trump, the president’s daughter, told the House Select Committee on January 6 that her father used a "different tone" than she’d previously heard with Pence. Nicholas Luna, Trump’s former assistant, recalled in a taped deposition, "I remember hearing the word 'wimp.' Either he called him a wimp, I don't remember if he said, 'You are a wimp, you'll be a wimp.' Wimp is the word I remember." Retired Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg, who served as Trump’s special envoy for Ukraine and Russia, told the committee he remembered Trump telling Pence he wasn’t "tough enough."
Roughly an hour after their conversation, Trump took to the stage and called on his supporters to march toward the Capitol, where Pence was scheduled to oversee the certification of the Electoral College vote. As Congress convened, Pence sent lawmakers a letter making it clear he would not reject any states’ electoral votes, standing firm in his constitutional role. Trump, in turn, lambasted Pence in a tweet, saying he "didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution." This public rebuke fueled the anger of some in the crowd, who began chanting, "Hang Mike Pence!" as they breached the Capitol’s defenses.
Prosecutors, according to Karl, were able to support their timeline of events using a forensic copy of Trump’s iPhone. The device’s data revealed when Trump’s phone was locked and unlocked throughout January 6, and included a screenshot of the lock screen showing Trump in a red MAGA hat, giving a thumbs-up. The FBI’s report indicated that Trump’s phone was used to access images depicting violence at the Capitol, including confrontations between officers and protestors, and photos of Ashli Babbitt, who was fatally shot as she tried to enter the House floor. Later that evening, at 7 p.m., Trump’s phone was used to visit a Twitter help page about locked accounts—just after his own Twitter account had been suspended.
Smith had intended to use this digital evidence to demonstrate Trump’s awareness of both his electoral defeat and the violence unfolding at the Capitol. In his final report, Smith wrote, "The throughline of all of Mr. Trump's criminal efforts was deceit." Despite Trump’s repeated denials—in court, he pleaded "not guilty" and claimed he hadn’t called Pence a "wimp"—the contemporaneous notes and digital records painted a starkly different picture.
The revelations in Jonathan Karl’s book, set to be released on October 28, 2025, add new depth to the public’s understanding of the fraught final days of the Trump administration. The book also delves into other behind-the-scenes tensions, including infighting among Trump’s allies over future White House staffing and the strained relationship between former Presidents Joe Biden and Barack Obama regarding the 2024 election.
As the nation continues to grapple with the legacy of January 6, the details emerging from Pence’s notes and the evidence collected by Smith’s team serve as a potent reminder of the pressures, choices, and consequences that shaped one of the most consequential days in American democracy.
